I’ve been participating in a small discussion with a friend of mine from AIM, Jeff Goins. He’s the editor of Wrecked For the Ordinary, an online magazine. He started talking about church and it has led to some interesting posts and comments.
If you’d like to catch up on the discussion, read the following blogs (if you don’t have an hour to burn, just read the ones with the asterisks):
- What’s Wrong With Church – Me*
- What is Church to You?
- Is Church an Experience?*
- What do you do when church disappoints you?*
- Can Church Be More Than a Social Club?
- What If Church Wasn’t About What You Got Out of It?*
- Sunday School Unscripted* – this is by Steve Basden
Jeff,
Regarding the church blogs you’ve been doing; I really like them. I’m glad people are actually talking about this stuff and I hope the conversation continues.
I’ve reread my comments on the “What to do if Church disappoints you” blog and I hope they didn’t come off as too harsh. However, on my second reading, I was concerned that they did.
I was afraid that it appeared that I was insulting the commenter when I said “…(supposed) man…” You know how some preachers have a habit of telling stories in their sermons about people that never really existed? This is what I was talking about. Yes, there are people who go to church and see hypocrites everywhere, but the one I was talking about was not real. Does this make sense? If necessary, please convey my apologies.
As for Clint’s comments; I’d really like to know what the heck he’s talking about. I hope he responds.
I’d like to add some more comments, but wanted to run it by you first. I don’t want to foster animosity or cause division – any more than I may have already.
I thought the guy who wrote the article on “What if it’s not about you” was spot on. I’ve been burned by the church also (definitely not on his level). I watched my parents get relegated to unimportant “what can we find them to do so they won’t embarrass us” kind of roles in church (my father knew more about the Bible than most of the people in my church; he just wasn’t cool, rich, or good-looking). The pastor that counseled my wife and me before we were married had an affair with his secretary and left the profession. He’s the guy that taught me how to avoid infidelity…
Yes, the church is a place where one should be safe; where one should be able to open up about sin, go for help, worship God, offer assistance, and break bread with like-minded people. As I mentioned in a previous comment, in my church, they actually argue about the decibel level of the music. They don’t say, “It’s too loud.” They say, “The decibels are too high. Keep them below X.” (I don’t know the actual number and REFUSE to get involved.) They complain that the pastor says inappropriate/controversial things (he does). They leave when things don’t go their way. People say “we need to practice our faith” and, when I tell them about opportunities to serve, tell me that they have a function planned with their Sunday School class that weekend (Shoot me now!) or say that they haven’t been called to do that.
But sometimes they are brilliant at the whole church thing. For instance, two weeks ago, my friend Judi Redmon died after fighting colon cancer for four months. I went to the hospital at 10:00 PM on a weeknight to check on her husband, Jay, and there were ten people there with him. These are people who had jobs to go to the next day and kids at home in bed. Every time 
I went, there were never fewer than five people from our church there with Jay – and I’m not talking about the pastors, I’m talking about lay people.
I got a call last night from my friend Jake. He had flown to San Diego to help his wife get back home after she broke her hip (she is 32 and has cancer) but last night she was having emergency surgery because of cancer on her spine. I called about four people that I knew would get the word out and within thirty minutes people were calling ME to see if I had gotten the word. I know that someone is watching their kids and dog and that someone else is taking care of their house. When they get home, they’ll have to fend off offers for help. That’s a powerful aspect of church.
Have you ever been watching the news about some horrible thing happening and the reporters get some person on screen saying “I didn’t think it could happen here/to me/whatever?” I always think “what makes you so special, that you get avoid pain or disappointment?” OK, I’m usually less eloquent, but you get my point. That’s how I feel many times about people who talk about getting hurt at or by the church. Getting hurt by the church doesn’t make one special; it makes you part of the club. Now, what are you going to do about it; fix your eyes on you or fix your eyes on Jesus?
Mark,
I can feel your frustrations. It seems that in the world today, we have two very distinct “churches.” We have the “church”, which is the body of believers who need to worship together, fellowship together, grieve together, etc.; THEN we have the “CHURCH”, a corporate entity which allows the “church” to come together as long as we play by the CHURCH rules. Today, if you want to become a member of the CHURCH, you must conform to the rules and regulations set up by said CHURCH. In the New Testament church, Jesus said that even the little children were welcome, and that the grups should come with faith just like little children. There is no place for that in the CHURCH. Most CHURCHES today are made up of amazing people with amazing talents and gifts, but they are pushed aside because they don’t give enough, they are not pretty enough, they don’t carry enough clout. Once I asked a pastor (and I wish I had had a camera to record the reaction) “If you think that YOU are the only one that God speaks to, what good does it do me to pray? If that is the case, then the entire Bible is a lie.”
This is what I see in our church today. I look around and see that there is something very interesting happening. Our church seems to have become the magnet for people with “disabilities.” I really hate that word. Just because someone is DIS-abled to do one thing doesn’t mean he is not gifted and fully ABLED to do other things. I think maybe God is placing some of these people in our midst to see how the CHURCH reacts to them. “As you do it unto the least of these…” Take for instance, the Deaf Ministry. We didn’t ask for it, it just happened. For years we TRIED to start a ministry – practically begged to get one started, but it never happened. I had been driving (as was Amy) to Waxahachie twice a month to use the gift God had told me to use. NOT necessarily ASL, because personally, I think I really stink at interpreting, but my love for these people who comprise the largest unchurched people group in the United States. (Did you get that? The LARGEST UN-CHURCHED PEOPLE GROUP IN THE USA!) If I do nothing else on any given Sunday but tell these people in their language that there truly IS a God who LOVES them and gave his son as a sacrifice for their sins, have I not fulfilled the Great Commission??? BUT, wading through the formalities of CHURCH rules sometimes makes me want to throw in the towel. We have had issues so mundane as “That chair that you use REALLY distracts others from worship. It is the wrong color, it makes you sit up too high and draws attention away from the pastor.” It that not CRAZY???? The CHURCH has, in a way, become a battleground between those trying to do the work of the Father, and those trying to impress the Father.
SHEESH! I’m so sorry, but your blog really gets me to thinking about some of these things, and the soap box comes out.
Thank you so much for sometimes saying the things that others wish they could express, and sparking a thought process!
good stuff. great convo. thanks for having it with me.